Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 11, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

On the surface the daggers at 7-17 damage doesn't look like much but when you factor in that Dagger Mastery makes them hit faster, up to .99sec attack rate maxed out, and every few hits it does a double hit, and the increased chance of a critical, then it matches a sword in dps when auto attacking. If a dagger comes close to a sword on the 60AL Master of Damage test, then they should both exhibit the same percentage reduction on the 78AL characters.

I was not really commenting on the skills chosen, just the weapons base damage with no skills used. There is no reason a Sin can't use warrior skills as well if they help in a pressure roll, but like I said the lack of a shield will hurt, although Nightstalker's insignia will give you +15AL whilst attacking.

BTW my auto attack tests were done with PvP characters/weapons the full 3min test on Master of Damage with standard dagger no vamp or penetrating mods etc. no skills in bar with

Assassin 12 in Dagger Master and 12 in Critical Strikes.

Warrior 12 in Sword Mastery and 12 in Strength.

Assassin = 17 DPS

Warrior = 18 DPS

Not much in it really.

Warriors get an IAS, about 40 more armor and don't rely on attack chains.

tigros · Feb 11, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erk

I was not really commenting on the skills chosen, just the weapons base damage with no skills used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Warriors get an IAS, about 40 more armor and don't rely on attack chains.

Mitch, he was talking about the weapon base damage comparison between warrior and assassin related to the fact that someone mentioned buffing the dagger base damage cause it's too low (compared to warrior and their weapon options)...

I could just reply to your post and say:

Assassins have hexes, better energy regen (than warriros), utility skills and energy based high damage combo chains.

Would add nothing to the discussion or the test Erk was doing and the point he was trying to make, although the statement is correct in itself (and obvious as well)...

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 11, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Mitch, he was talking about the weapon base damage comparison between warrior and assassin related to the fact that someone mentioned buffing the dagger base damage cause it's too low (compared to warrior and their weapon options)...

I could just reply to your post and say:

Assassins have hexes, better energy regen (than warriros), utility skills and energy based high damage combo chains.

Would add nothing to the discussion or the test Erk was doing and the point he was trying to make, although the statement is correct in itself (and obvious as well)...

The point I was making was that assassins are bad DPS characters.

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 11, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Assassin = 17 DPS

Warrior = 18 DPS

Terrible Comparison. When you talk about autoattack DPS you CANNOT leave Frenzy, Bulls Strike, and the huge Crit damage of Axes out of the equation.

Because THAT is why an auto-attacking warrior is such a threat (and an assassin is not). I has NOTHING to do with the DPS you can calculate on the Master of Damage and EVERYTHING to do with what actually happens ingame.

Put it this way ... if an axe warrior never used frenzy or bulls stike, then people would be complaining that Warrior pressure sucked too...

tigros · Feb 11, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Terrible Comparison. When you talk about autoattack DPS you CANNOT leave Frenzy, Bulls Strike, and the huge Crit damage of Axes out of the equation.

Because THAT is why an auto-attacking warrior is such a threat (and an assassin is not). I has NOTHING to do with the DPS you can calculate on the Master of Damage and EVERYTHING to do with what actually happens ingame.

Put it this way ... if an axe warrior never used frenzy or bulls stike, then people would be complaining that Warrior pressure sucked too...

Guys... before splashing around first of all the two classes have different roles... warrior pressure, assassin spike (both at melee range primarily, with assassins being able to do some damage at range as well)... then go do a test on the master of damage with your best adrenal damage combos on frenzy war and your best chain combos for assassin spike if you wanna talk absolute numbers... if you wanna talk about "ingame", then please do factor in player skill, team support, adversaries, their counters, etc... Otherwise just drop it

Let me say it again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Terrible Comparison. When you talk about autoattack DPS you CANNOT leave Frenzy, Bulls Strike, and the huge Crit damage of Axes out of the equation.

auto attack DPS is exactly attacking without any skills involved...

Zamochit · Feb 11, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Regarding Sins and the shadowstepping mechanic...

How would people feel about changing shadowstepping so that it caused exhaustion?

Kyp Jade · Feb 11, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamochit

Regarding Sins and the shadowstepping mechanic...

How would people feel about changing shadowstepping so that it caused exhaustion?

<3

Yay for no more D/A or W/A

this wins, anet do that

Killed u man · Feb 11, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamochit

Regarding Sins and the shadowstepping mechanic...

How would people feel about changing shadowstepping so that it caused exhaustion?

I would uninstall factions, seeing how you pretty much eliminate every assassin build used now... (Yeye, nobody cares about the 0.1% that uses non-SP/DP builds)

Don't get me wrong on this one, shadowstepping is a broken mechanic, and so is the "kill-and-run"-chain on sins. (Seriously, whats the point of balancing a game when you have a profession that's BASED on solo'ing a guy every 15 seconds)

IF shadowstepping EVER gets nerfed, Anet better come up with something good, or otherwise I fear we won't EVER see the sin again...

EDIT: On second tought, seeing how most Shadowsteps are 30 recharge anyway, it would nearly NO effect at all. Only Morale boosts/dual shadow step could really feel this nerf... Still, no need to introduce it tough. The problem isn't the recharge or spamming on shadowsteps, it's the simple fact that shadowstep=1000000%speed buff... (Insta-jump to target, huray for rush/shock right?)

Zamochit · Feb 11, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

shadowstep and shock would be 20 points of exhaustion on an assassin/ele for instance, and the exhaustion may go some way to prevent shadowstepping being exploited by non assassin primarys.

Maybe I'm wrong regarding this but I would just like to see shadowsteps penalised in some way and exhaustion is the only current game mechanic that I would see as viable.

tigros · Feb 11, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The point I was making was that assassins are bad DPS characters.

A random test... is not 100% concludent... but still:

warrior

4143 damage
123 seconds
33 dps
best damage 91, at 32 seconds
death after 11 seconds

assassin

3838 damage
97 seconds
39 dps
best damage 139, at 55 seconds
death after 16 seconds (weird, but whatever)

Regular shock axe warrior, used all skills in the first combos (bulls, eviscerate, executioners, agonizing, shock, adrenal spike with frenzy on), then used only adrenal spike under frenzy as it was charged since after a couple of shocks the exhaustion prevented anything else

Regular Moebius assassin, 4 combo skills (black mantis strike, wild strike, nine tail strike, moebius strike), no IAS, reused skills as they recharged and based on natural energy regen.

Used sundering of fortitude axe and dagger.

On the average, I think that both classes have similar DPS and they can sustain it similarly over time, so I think that Erk's point was well done, both based on base weapon damage, as well as my test shows using specific class skills.

Now... on top of this you need to factor the differences between the two classes... armor, utility, hexes, mobility, survivability, etc...

The point is that both classes were designed for their specific purpose... warriors for pressure and adrenal spikes, assassins for ganks and splits... (in gvg for example, not limited to these two overall)

The idea is that we should stop complaining about one or the other class and use them for what they were designed for... If you want to complain about specific skill balance and how they fit with the class role, that's a different thing.

Zabe · Feb 11, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

The idea is that we should stop complaining about one or the other class and use them for what they were designed for... If you want to complain about specific skill balance and how they fit with the class role, that's a different thing.

Sin is designed to 321 lol ur ded. Nothing else.

Dominator1370 · Feb 11, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

Guys... before splashing around first of all the two classes have different roles... warrior pressure, assassin spike

Wrong right there. See, Assassins aren't good for anything but spiking, but Warriors can do both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

...a bunch of random test data

You used a sundering mod? It didn't occur to you that a 20% chance for armor penetration on your sundering mod could still effect your results after a minute and a half? Besides, who uses sundering anyway?

You used Bulls Strike on a stationary target dummy? Not only does that not get you the +28 damage, but it doesn't get you an auto-crit. You DO know what auto-crits are, right?

You used two different length tests? How does that make any sense? There's also the distinct possibility that crit rate is playing a role in the discrepancy. Your tests weren't very long.

Your test is worthless.

DreamRunner · Feb 11, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

warrior pressure, assassin spike

SA sin is definetly a spike build, rofl. Evis+exec isnt a spike?

JR · Feb 11, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Evis+exec isnt a spike?

No, it's not. Evis+exec + Lorb + Eburn + Spear of Lightning is a spike.

Captain Robo · Feb 11, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

A random test... is not 100% concludent... but still:

warrior

4143 damage
123 seconds
33 dps
best damage 91, at 32 seconds
death after 11 seconds

assassin

3838 damage
97 seconds
39 dps
best damage 139, at 55 seconds
death after 16 seconds (weird, but whatever)

Regular shock axe warrior, used all skills in the first combos (bulls, eviscerate, executioners, agonizing, shock, adrenal spike with frenzy on), then used only adrenal spike under frenzy as it was charged since after a couple of shocks the exhaustion prevented anything else

Regular Moebius assassin, 4 combo skills (black mantis strike, wild strike, nine tail strike, moebius strike), no IAS, reused skills as they recharged and based on natural energy regen.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0211490&page=2 <--- this is how you conduct a damage test.

You should also see that you really messed up your warrior test.

Quote:

Used sundering of fortitude axe and dagger.

Quote:

On the average, I think that both classes have similar DPS and they can sustain it similarly over time, so I think that Erk's point was well done, both based on base weapon damage, as well as my test shows using specific class skills.

Erk's point was anything but well done...

From what you're telling us, you used a three-spike-skill warrior (Evisc-Executioners-Agonizing) and basically hacked away at the Master of Damage and spammed adrenal skills on recharge. In Frenzy no less.

As opposed to a mobius strike assassin which basically RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO'd all over the Master of Damage for however long you felt like doing this.

There's no consistency, no control. The characters do completely different things, and above all else you used a SUNDERING mod.

Quote:

Now... on top of this you need to factor the differences between the two classes... armor, utility, hexes, mobility, survivability, etc...

The error already in your original experiment, in combination with these factors makes your data completely worthless.

Div · Feb 11, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Warriors get an IAS, about 40 more armor

Agreed. Plus the fact that it's much more likely for a warrior to run 12-12 than for a sin to run 12-12. Sins generally run something like 12-10-8 or 12-9-9, which means the DPS will be even lower than the calculated amount. Generally when the warrior deviates from 12-12 is when they spec into conjures (even more damage!) or when they spec into some type of healing attribute (tactics, wind prayers) to become effective on a split. Despite the sin's spiking abilities, it's extremely fragile individually on the split if it doesn't have a monk or an ineptitude mesmer to support it.

Not even looking at the armor difference between warriors and assassins and the ability to keep pressuring, the war already has about a 50% more DPS output than the sin.

I can't believe people are actually arguing that sins can output similar pressure to warriors.

Moebius sin used in GvG as pressure? Are you kidding me?

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Terrible Comparison. When you talk about autoattack DPS you CANNOT leave Frenzy, Bulls Strike, and the huge Crit damage of Axes out of the equation.

Because THAT is why an auto-attacking warrior is such a threat (and an assassin is not). I has NOTHING to do with the DPS you can calculate on the Master of Damage and EVERYTHING to do with what actually happens ingame.

Put it this way ... if an axe warrior never used frenzy or bulls stike, then people would be complaining that Warrior pressure sucked too...

Clearly you didn't read this thread properly, I was responding to one point and only one point made by Dominator1370:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

...
One of the main reasons Warriors are so good is because while they aren't spiking, they can pressure. This is where dagger base damage becomes important. Namely, dagger damage sucks, so Sins can't really pressure very well.

If you want to test DPS with skill combos good luck to you. Don't forget that a Sin with a Warrior weapon and some points in Critical Strikes will out DPS a Warrior with that same weapon and same points in Strength.

Captain Robo · Feb 11, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

If you want to test DPS with skill combos good luck to you. Don't forget that a Sin with a Warrior weapon and some points in Critical Strikes will out DPS a Warrior with that same weapon and same points in Strength.

Laughable. Even if this were true, you're wasting a primary AND secondary class to do what a warrior does well enough.

It's also not just about "dps". You can't make an assassin to those specifications and have it perform nearly as well as a warrior. Spike damage will be lower, given that you can't spec beyond 12, and you can't capitalize on Rush, Bull's Strike, or have access to Shock. The best you've got going for you is ddagger in that department, but you're also ignoring the fact that you have considerably less frontline survivability than a warrior (and I can't believe I'm even entertaining the feasibility of this character).

That's just a horrible idea, why would you suggest that?

erk · Feb 11, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Laughable. Even if this were true, you're wasting a primary AND secondary class to do what a warrior does well enough.

It's also not just about "dps". You can't make an assassin to those specifications and have it perform nearly as well as a warrior. Spike damage will be lower, given that you can't spec beyond 12, and you can't capitalize on Rush, Bull's Strike, or have access to Shock. The best you've got going for you is ddagger in that department, but you're also ignoring the fact that you have considerably less frontline survivability than a warrior (and I can't believe I'm even entertaining the feasibility of this character).

That's just a horrible idea, why would you suggest that?

Because Critical Strikes is a better DPS primary than Strength that's all. I place no value judgements like "horrible" on either. People also don't necessarily run max points in a weapon mastery either. eg. People have been using RaO thumpers on front lines with only 12 in hammer for years.

tigros · Feb 11, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The error already in your original experiment, in combination with these factors makes your data completely worthless.

Dude

at least I tried to spend some time and collect some data that I acknowledged not being perfect.

All you guys are doing is flame and point fingers, but I never see anyone of you bother do prove the other way around by doing the same tests... I guess it takes too much "time" ah?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

the war already has about a 50% more DPS output than the sin.

Can you prove it with numbers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Moebius sin used in GvG as pressure? Are you kidding me?

Who said that? It was a Moebius sin used to test some dps on Master of Damage

I doubt that's GVG lol.

If you're so smart do the "proper" damage tests and argument your position with them... If the two professions are not comparable because they're too different (not because of any error), at least stop flaming people who try to argument their statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The characters do completely different things, and above all else you used a SUNDERING mod.

What is funny is that people still don't get it that if you use the same standards/measurement tools the actual results showing differences between two things are the same (not the absolute results, but that's irrelevant when you compare things). I said it before... if the result shows 2 and 4 using method1 and the results show 4 and 8 using method2 (for both analyzed objects) it's practically the same...

sheesh